The Special Parent Podcast
Welcome to The Special Parent Podcast! I’m Dr. Deanna Iverson, a proud mom of three boys, two incredible kids with special needs, and I’m here to remind you that you’re not alone on this journey. Whether you’re navigating the highs, the lows, or those moments in between, this podcast is your weekly dose of hope, help, and heartfelt guidance. Together, we’ll celebrate the victories, tackle the challenges, and connect with a community that truly understands. So grab your favorite cup of coffee, settle in, and let’s embark on this empowering journey together. You’ve got this!
Hosted by Dr. Deanna Iverson, high school counselor for kids in need of emotional and social support, and a Doctor of Community Counseling and Traumatology, Dr. D believes that empowering parents of special needs children is like giving them the superpower of unconditional love, unwavering strength, and unbreakable determination.
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The Special Parent Podcast
Birds, Bees, and Special Needs: Understanding Sexuality for Neurodiverse Children | Ep29
Unlock the secrets to having meaningful and effective conversations about sexuality with neurodivergent children in this enlightening episode. Join me as I sit down with Amy Lang, a celebrated sexuality educator with a focus on neurodiversity. Amy shares her inspiring journey from general sex education to a specialized focus, which was driven by her personal experiences and the glaring lack of resources for neurodivergent families. Together, we address the intricacies and unique challenges of discussing sexual health with neurodivergent kids, emphasizing the importance of using proper anatomical terms and fostering open, honest dialogue to ensure a safe and informed environment for young minds.
We navigate the critical role parents play in supporting their children's exploration of sexuality. From understanding teenage sexuality to preparing children for sexual health responsibilities, we provide a toolkit for parents to engage in these essential conversations, encouraging a sex-positive perspective and nurturing stronger family bonds.
This episode also tackles the tough subjects of STIs, pregnancy, and pornography, especially in the context of neurodivergent and disabled individuals. Learn effective communication strategies to address these sensitive topics, while empowering your children with the knowledge they need to navigate their social environments safely. With resources like Amy's book "Sex Talks with Tweens", parents will be better equipped to maintain open lines of communication and guide their children toward a healthy understanding of sexuality. Don't miss this opportunity to enrich your parenting arsenal with expert advice from Amy Lang.
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Birds & Bees & Kids - https://birdsandbeesandkids.com
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Your contribution helps us to continue making new episodes and achieve our goal of reaching as many parents, families, and caregivers of children with special needs as possible, to provide support, guidance, hope, and community!
Welcome to the Special Parent Podcast. I'm Dr Deanna Iverson, a proud mom of three boys and two incredible kids with special needs. I'm here to remind you that you're not alone on this journey. Whether you're navigating the highs, the lows or those moments in between, this podcast is your weekly dose of hope, help and heartfelt guidance. Together, we'll celebrate the victories, tackle the challenges and connect with a community that truly understands. So grab your favorite cup of coffee or tea, settle in and let's embark on this empowering journey together. You've got this. Welcome everyone to the Special Parent Podcast. I'm Dr Deanna Iverson and I'm very excited to have with me a guest today. This is Amy Lang, and Amy Lang is a parent, but, most importantly, she's a sexuality educator and she specializes in neurodivergent children. So, amy, thank you so much for joining me.
Speaker 2:Welcome, my pleasure. Thanks for having me on. I'm excited to talk with you and I always learn something from my people I'm working with on podcasts, so I'm excited to get to know you and share my info with your people.
Speaker 1:Oh, and I'm really excited about this too. I can't wait to hear what you have to tell us. But first and foremost, how did you get started in this area the sexuality education, specialization of neurodiversity how did that get started for you?
Speaker 2:Well, I had been a sex educator for throughout all my twenties and into my thirties, and I was doing the usual stuff, you know birth control, pregnancy counseling, sti counseling loved it and had assumed that I was going to be spectacular when I had a kid and that nothing would phase me and it would just be really easy. And I was really wrong. Um, I, when Milo he's he's 23 now uh, it was about five he was getting ready for a bath and he grabbed his penis and I thought he was going to tell me it felt good to touch it and I was just like, don't tell me that, please don't tell me that in my head. And then I, I, anyway. So that was my moment where I thought, okay, this is not how this should be and you need to figure it out. So I started doing a bunch of research to figure out how to talk with kids about sex. And then, um, the other part of my background is, I have a master's degree in applied behavioral science and my focus was in adult education. So, as I'm figuring this out for our family, I realized that I could help other adults and so I started birds and bees and kids. And um, as you can imagine. Um, milo was completely mortified by my work for his entire life. He's better now. He's better now, um so.
Speaker 2:So I've been working with neurotypical parents and neurodivergent parents all along. I'm not neurodivergent, milo isn't. My spouse, carrie, has dyslexia, which I did not know was neurodivergence, and when I learned that I was like, oh, this explains so many things about you. Um and so in the last couple of years when I do individual consultations, I people would just drop in oh, my kid is autistic, adhd-er. And then I was like, okay, what's happening? So I started asking at the top, any neurodivergence in the family and I kept getting yeses, like I would say like almost two, I'm guessing like two thirds, that's a good number and I thought, okay, well, y'all seem to need some help, let me see what I can find.
Speaker 2:And I couldn't find anything for people who were parenting neurodivergent kids between the like from preschool to middle school, which is my sweet spot with neurotypical kids. So I was like, okay, I could, I could do this. So I got a certification in neurodiversity and sexuality and disability, actually from Mercy College, and so I have been putting that to work and working with neurodivergent families, working with, like within schools that have neurodivergent kids, and I also work with professionals and do sexual abuse prevention training and teach about sexual behavior in children. So I have been able to add this on and, honestly, I was ready for something new and so I just always feel good about helping parents, but helping parents with neurodivergent kids or kids who are disabled or with disabilities has, just frankly, it's just so much more rewarding because it's so important and they feel better, right, like everybody feels better, but double feel better. So, anyway, so that's how I got my start and here we are.
Speaker 1:Yeah, here we are. I'm so glad you were able to join me. And here we are. Yeah, here we are. I'm so glad you were able to join me, and for me, as a parent of children that are neurodiverse, it's been such a roller coaster ride, and that's why, when I was starting to research for myself because I have boys and I know it's not mostly boys, but it feels like it sometimes that it's just there's a lot more going on with boys and that sexuality piece a lot of times, and I just was trying to figure out how to help my kid and it was really, really challenging because there's not a lot out there and we've we've done some things, and then, of course, some things have completely flopped and failed, and so that's why, when I ran across you, I was like, oh my gosh, this is amazing. And so, like we talked about, you know, special needs and the birds and the bees is a little bit different than just talking the birds and the bees in general. So I love the fact that we're going to have this conversation. So I want to tell you a little bit about why was I researching this. Why was I coming across this? So it was several years ago.
Speaker 1:Um, but my son, when he was and I don't remember if it's exactly around eight, but I want to say between seven and eight um, we had gotten them, the these tablets, and they were Amazon tablets, not anything against Amazon, I'm a proud Amazon purchaser. We had gotten the Amazon tablets for kids and they had um kids tube. You know, it's not YouTube, it's kids tube and so it's supposed to be a little bit more protectant. In addition to that, we had added all I think it was bark is one of the ones that we had used and we've used other ones, and we we've put on all these checks and balances in places and we'd look at our kids' tablets every once in a while, etc. So we thought we were good.
Speaker 1:And my kids are using their tablets and my son is special needs in a lot of different areas, but he also has a lower cognition level. So for him, just basic internet searches weren't happening, because he can't really spell words yet or anything. Searches weren't happening because he can't really spell words yet or anything. So I think I also had a false sense of security that he also wouldn't discover sexual content, because he didn't even know how to spell it, even if he could say it yet and I learned my lesson. So what I found out was when we discovered that he had been exposed to pornography on his tablet. With all the checks and balances in place, it was about four clicks, because you know how when you're on the tablet, you can use the back button. It was four clicks backwards from the pornography to the kids video he was watching. So it was clickbait on the side, the side panel clickbait. Yeah, yeah, terrible. And I was just shocked. I didn't think it was a possibility with all the stuff that we had put in place.
Speaker 1:And ever since that day, my son has an addiction to pornography. So sorry, we have fought this battle and it's been years. We're six, seven years fighting this battle and he doesn't understand as much as we've attempted to explain it and done all the things. He doesn't understand why this is not healthy for him and I've tried so hard and we've tried. You know we have not gone to shaming. We don't believe in that. My husband and I are not into shaming. This is not something to be ashamed of. I mean, heck pornography is out there because it's used a lot, but it's not that I'm going to be ashamed about. However, he doesn't understand why he should even try to fight it, right, and so that's part of it. I would say that's the bigger part of the battle we're fighting with him is why do I even need to fight? This is kind of his question. So I was researching and I came upon you and I just I can't wait to hear what you have to say.
Speaker 2:Oh man, I'm so sorry that happened to you and I think that you're just like every other parent, right? You do all the things and then you just can't imagine that that kid's YouTube, youtube is not safe ever. I'm in the end. It's just not, it's not, it's not's not, and you know it, and so that happening is such. I mean, it's not a surprise to me, and you know bark and custodio, they're not perfect, right, and they're good. It's a good start. It's just better than nothing, right, better than nothing, right. Nothing is a much bigger problem because you can get to way worse stuff than you know. Maybe your kid initially saw. But yeah, and not shaming, because it's not their fault, right, even if they're seeking it out. It's not their fault that they're curious. It's not that their fault, their fault that their friends are talking about it. It's not their fault that their parents aren't talking with them about sex, like.
Speaker 1:None of that's their fault Not to be shaming Right, exactly, and I, honestly, we this is my, one of my sons, and I didn't think he was ready cognitively to have too much of a conversation. He knew some basics. We'd said the word sex before we talked about private parts. I mean, I think most everyone touches on that by the time they're seven, eight years old, just because we're afraid of what's out there. We've talked about that kind of stuff but I hadn't really gone into at all what pornography was or anything, because I did not expect him to need that conversation.
Speaker 2:Of course not. Of course not. Especially that child of yours, right, who isn't operating on this. You know he's got stuff going on that doesn't put him in the same. You know he's not a typical eight year old, right? Or it wasn't a typical nine year old or 12 year old, so that just makes things more complicated. And but it doesn't mean just because your child is neurodivergent and whatever that looks like, um, or developmentally different, it doesn't mean you don't talk with them about this part of life. Because they are sexual beings, they will have sexual feelings Pretty much everybody does and sex and relationships is one of the biggest things we do in our lives. It's with us from birth until death.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's supposed to be a rewarding part of our lives.
Speaker 2:I mean, it's intended to be the celebration dance, it's supposed to be fun, right, and unfortunately it's incredibly confusing, right, right. And so, you know, one of my philosophies is that our children have a human right to be prepared, as prepared as they can be for this part of life, and that's on us, right, it's on us, right. I mean, we don't do anything bigger than this or more complicated than this in our lives the romantic relationships, sexual relationships there really isn't anything much bigger and that can have, like, it's physical, it's social, it's emotional, right, it's all the parts, it's all the things, right, you know, calculus is intellectual, I'm in the end. And then who uses calculus? I don't even know what it is. Trigonometry, don't ask, but like, like, finding a way to make this a priority in our parenting can be hard because of our personal histories, because of where kids are wired right, because of our culture.
Speaker 2:You know, maybe you're, maybe you're someone who's in a religious culture where it's absolutely not allowed to talk about, like there's so many places, but at the end of the day, this is about health and safety and that is our only job to keep our kids healthy and safe. So all that to say, one of my things, is that this doesn't have to be so hard, it can be really fun and funny. I mean, there are just so many stories and talking about it. Even if your child doesn't quite get it, you still have to talk about it because you're doing due diligence, right. You need to do everything you can to make sure your child is safe. So, or you know, or has this information, so I just want to put that out there. And then what are you thinking?
Speaker 1:on who we are. It's that social, emotional, all those pieces. So, as a parent, that can come across as pretty overwhelming I'm supposed to not only discipline my child, make sure they are behaved well when we go to the restaurant, I'm supposed to do all these other things but above all of that, the health and safety and our sexual health is important to us as human beings. And so how do we help? What's the first steps? Let's say, let's just start with almost age group, let's start with in the beginning, when they're young. How do we have the conversation with our younger kids, regardless or taking into consideration the fact that maybe younger, it's more mental age than physical age? How do we have that conversation?
Speaker 2:with them. So the first conversation is using correct names for their private body parts.
Speaker 1:I agree.
Speaker 2:I mean penises, vulvas, vaginas, testicles, butts, anuses, mouths, are also a private part, just like using but the down there parts, using those correct words. What happens is is that takes away the mystery. So when we say front, bottom, back bottom, tallywhacker, tinkle, waggle, my favorite, it's confusing, right. And it also says there's something special or different down there, like this is not my smeller, right, it's my nose. And for, you know, kids who are autistic and neurodivergent, lots of you just got to be straight like black and white thinkers. They don't understand a euphemism. So if you say hey, my, you know, hey, how's your taco today, I'm just kind of how's your taco? Is your taco itching?
Speaker 2:And you've got a person with a vulva, they're going to be like itching taco what the hell, right? They're a middle schooler and they're. And someone's talking about, oh, that, that girl's taco. They're going to be like vegetarian or ground beef, right, they're not going to catch the slang, right? And so that's the very, very first conversation is using the correct names for private body parts. And the other reason for that is that it's protective, because folks who mess with kids they want them to be clueless. So if your child says, like Thanksgiving is coming up, right. If your child's at the dinner table and they're like God, my penis itches, the whole room's going to freeze, right. But if there's a person there who's a predator, they hear your kid say penis. They're going to be like all right, someone's talking to that child, yep.
Speaker 1:That's true. It does take a lot of that like he takes that away from it and it makes it a conversation that's actually okay to have. Which is part of it is the reason we're talking about it is we want our kids to talk back with us about it, and if we act like it's easy, then they're going to run away and talk to their friends about it first, Right?
Speaker 2:Right, so the friends might be accurate, like we all had friends who were accurate and then we all had friends who were not so accurate. So they're going to find the information and, like you just pointed out, they're going to find it online.
Speaker 1:Yep, right, and online doesn't find it online, and online doesn't use the terminology. Oh no, it's way worse.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's way worse. So, talking about that, talking about different kinds of families, talking about how, literally, how babies are made, right, the penis goes usually, right, penis goes in the vagina, always takes a sperm and an egg and talking about how they came to be and and talking about how they came to be, and there's lots of really good books which are, you know, good for some kids, not so good for other kids. There's a great website called amazeorg that has videos on everything you can possibly think of and they're kid friendly, they're cartoons and so, using, like with neurodivergent kids, you need to use a lot of different techniques, right. A lot of different ways, like different learning styles, right. So making sure they understand that and that this is a conversation you do have in your family and you need to say we can talk about anything you want. I will answer you honestly, right? If you have questions, come to me. If you're curious about something, come to me.
Speaker 2:And then one of the biggest myths out there in the sex talking land is that if your child no, my child told me he'd rather talk to strangers than me or his dad, it was great. He also told me he would never ask me a question. Not on this topic, mom, I mean really not on anything, actually None of this tight-lipped human being. So just remembering like this is your responsibility, and even if you are uncomfortable, that's okay. All you do is you say I'm uncomfortable, right, nobody talked to me about this, I'm going to be weird, right?
Speaker 1:And, like you said, say I'm uncomfortable, even if I would even say as a parent, even if you said to your kid like, okay, we do need to have this discussion and mom's a little uncomfortable because this is my first time having this, with discussion with you, and that when kids know that we're more human emotionally, I think they accept and roll with that better too. You know that makes them more relaxed because, oh, if mom's uncomfortable, then it's okay that I'm uncomfortable. Yeah, exactly, so I can be part of the discussion.
Speaker 2:Yeah, or just say this is going to be weird for both of us. Here we go. You need to know, right, you need to know.
Speaker 1:I like it.
Speaker 2:No, and you know, and some kids, um, you know, depend on wiring and just personality really could be really uncomfortable with this. Lots of times neurodivergent kids really struggle with the changes of the body through puberty, um, or just you know. The other piece, too, is like lots of kids are like this or like I don't I'm never doing that, so I don't need to have this information Really common and it's like, well, say that now, which you can't really say because it's condescending, but it's like, yeah, I get it. But one of the things that often resonates with kids is if you say you know what? It is really cool to be the smartest kid in your friend group about this.
Speaker 1:I like that right.
Speaker 2:I like that right they do they might not care. It doesn't resonate with every child, but they might not care, and for you as a parent, it is really cool to be the smartest parent in your, in your friend group about this.
Speaker 1:It's great, cause I remember a lot of times when I would you know, say to parents oh yeah, we've talked to, you know so-and-so about it. One of our sons and you have already. Oh yeah, yeah. And then, especially after what happened with my, my middle son, I would say yes, because this happened, and I would have parents be like, oh well, did you try this app or that app? That would have. And I'm like, no, you're not understanding what I'm saying. There is only a level of protection with all of this out there. So we have to have the conversation because that is the top level of protection, right, the information Right. So with kids that have like a lower, they're developmentally delayed, maybe they have like a lower cog issues going on. What would you say are some ways? Obviously still use the right vocabulary and language. What would you say are some of the ways that we need to do? For example, maybe more frequent conversations or, like you mentioned that one website. It's probably pretty helpful because it's done cartoon-like.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so more frequent, shorter conversations. Order two Okay, really, I mean again. One of the glories of what I've come to understand, especially with autistic folks, is you don't need to use, just say it like you don't need to be careful, it doesn't serve anyone, including you, and it's so nice to just say yeah, sometimes, you know, when, sometimes people like I'm going to say things, so everybody, get ready, put your hat, put your sturdy hat on, like you can say like hey, you know, sometimes when they're doing sexual stuff together, they might put their mouths on each other's privates. It's called oral sex. It's something they agree to do. It's not for kids, it's for later in life. Rather than saying something like oh hey, I need to talk to you about something, and okay, there's this kind of sex. It's called oral sex. Do you know what that is?
Speaker 2:That makes it like this again One person puts their mouth on another person's privates and then they duck a duck, a duck, right, right, and you hear me rattle that off right Like. How many times have I described oral sex? 7,000. So the reason I want to give you that example is because it's highly charged and kids are talking about it. There is an epidemic of kids talking about 69 on the playground, like it's all over the place. And I was just actually in where was I, alabama and teaching at an Air Force base with a group of folks who work with kids and I was like, how many of you are hearing about 69 on the playground? A third of the hands went up.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:The other third are going to know real fast, right, the sexual moaning, that's the other thing that's going on. These sexual moaning sounds and I'm like, how about that? And they're like, yeah, so there's this epidemic of this stuff going on, and so we have to get ahead of it, because your kids need to understand that, yeah, this is something that people do, they agree to do it. It's later in life.
Speaker 2:It's not for kids, and with a child who's got lower cognition, one of the things that can happen is their body can be ahead of their brain, right, you can have a 13-year-old who's cognitively more like a nine or 10-year-old and here they are, in their grownup body. They're having sexual feelings, they're getting boners left, right and center. They don't know what to do about that. I mean, they might touch them, feel more likely to touch themselves in public because they just they struggle with public-private, and so those kids absolutely need books and lots of conversation about what's happening with their body so they understand it's normal, right, and then talking about sex in a simpler way. But if you've got your 13-year-old who's cognitively like a 10-year-old hanging out with other 13-year-olds, right, yeah, and that's the hard part, I think, is teenagers are exposed to it.
Speaker 1:Obviously, in junior high, kids are talking about it. I think some parents are in denial that it's happening in elementary school. I really do, but it is. And but then when you get a child who's a teenager so they're in junior high or maybe freshman in high school, but they're a young teen developmentally they're not a young teen, they're. They're delayed. So maybe they're hanging out with or they're around or they're're they consider friendships of kids that are younger.
Speaker 1:We're going to bring the older conversations across that spectrum and it could be they make the moaning sounds to see what the other kids respond with because they're trying to figure out. Well, they laugh at it over here, they're going to laugh at it over here, right, right, and so they make the moaning sounds or they they make the gestures they've seen other kids do, and and then the younger kids are like what the heck was that? So it's better for for parents, if, if you have got that elementary school kid, if you start talking about it early, very matter of fact, just like you would math or anything else, then when what the heck is that happens, they're going to come to you because they're not afraid.
Speaker 1:They're not thinking it's a hard crush topic. They're not those kinds of events. So, yeah, it's really critical for all age groups to really be having that conversation because of that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and consistently right and consistently like. Even like, kids before puberty are often really fine. Lots of them will just talk and be super chatty. And then they get into puberty and adolescence and they're like I don't need to hear this, I already know everything, my personal favorite. And so they put the brakes on. And so just because your kids put the brakes on, that doesn't mean you stop talking. That's a good one you don't like. Just because they don't want to hear it doesn't mean you stop talking about it. Like, think of all the other things, like they need to bathe. You don't stop. Well, sometimes you just have to Forget it. Your peers will take care of you. Smelling like a swamp, the goats and farts, is what was going on at my house. That's true. A lot of times that won't go away Goats, goats and farts, goats and farts, um. So you can't give up on this because they don't want to hear it. And again, uh, kids, your kids are more, um, they're more at risk, they're higher risk, they're. They're unfortunately right and I wish I could say this was just going to fix all that, but it's not.
Speaker 2:And one of the places that kids kind of get into into trouble are girls who are neurodivergent. They mask and they do much more going along to get along. They're diagnosed later. Women aren't diagnosed until they're in their 30s or 40s, sometimes because we mask, we know how to go along, right. And so we've got a 12-year-old girl who's operating on a nine-year-old level and she's hanging out with other girls who are talking about crushing and all kinds of things and she's going to maybe say some things that that they're crushing things and she doesn't understand what she's doing, so she might make herself vulnerable inadvertently. And so now that for those of you who have neurodivergent and developmentally different gals, just take a breath, um, because this open line of communication is what's one of the things that can help them. So role-playing and and saying you know, if you don't understand something that's happened, just tell me. And being really clear, you won't be in trouble. Even if a kid tells you you'll be in trouble, you will not be in trouble. We don't roll that way. We don't.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think that that's also you know, letting them know that there's that safe place, no matter what anyone else has told you. Yeah, and we keep. We keep referring to neurodivergent, which is a very large category, a little bit of a smaller category, however, when you and I were kind of discussing this before you had mentioned, the category is smaller but the percentage of students affected within that category is a lot larger and that's like your transgender category, your LGBTQ, so will you kind of explore that again for?
Speaker 2:our listeners.
Speaker 1:It's a little bit different of a category than just neurodivergent and I want to make sure that we give that the price.
Speaker 2:It's related to sexuality, right. So about 2% to 3% of folks who are autistic identify as something other than cisgender and straight. So it's LGBTQ. So cisgender means that when you were born, they looked at your parts and said you're a girl because you had a vulva, or you're a boy because you have a penis, and so that's. That's what cisgender means. We all know what straight means, right. So it's really interesting. And they're much more likely to be LGBTQ, and there doesn't appear to be a lot of research into why.
Speaker 2:But the kind of reasoning is that they don't give a crap about social norms, right? A lot of autistic people are like I just am who I am, I don't care. I like that person. I don't feel like a girl, I feel like a care, I like that person. I don't feel like a girl, I feel like a boy, I feel like both. I feel like neither Um so, or I feel like I'm not. I feel like I'm a, I'm a, I'm told I'm a girl, but I really do feel like I'm a boy, right.
Speaker 2:And so they have this different, um, kind of worldview of gender and sexuality, which I think um is. Honestly, I know this is probably controversial. I think it's probably more real. Right, it's more real because they're not falling or they're not as subject to these social mores and our cultural stuff and that kind of thing which, depending on what family the child's in, can be really awful but for the child and really hard on the parents, because lots of people don't understand this. Because we are cisgender, like I can't imagine being a boy, right, or a guy.
Speaker 1:I wouldn't know how, that there are times I say to my boys, cause they'll ask me we do have open conversations. They'll ask me questions about parts or itchings or this or that, which is totally normal questions for them to ask, and there are times that I'd go. Well, I don't know, let me call your dad in.
Speaker 2:I don't have your parts and I'm not interested in having your parts, just being very mindful that this is something a big proportion of neurodivergent folks deal with and kids deal with. And then here's another interesting statistic. Let me see if I can get it right Six percent of people who are transgender are autistic. Wow that's a much larger percentage.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. And I think it just comes back to that piece around. I don't see the world in the same way, like coming back to your stinky boys, right, like I don't care, I don't care that I stink, like the world around you cares, I don't care. You need to bathe, I don't care, right, cause that's really a social thing that they don't care about. Um, which is gross. But there you go, um, anyway. I'm not an expert on getting children to bathe, yeah.
Speaker 1:And it's you know, when we talk about these topics with children, even if your child is physically a girl, emotionally girl all the things or a boy, they probably should have the discussion about what transgender is, what LGBTQ plus is, and start to understand that even early, because it will make them a better friend. It's going to make them not if the topic comes up. So it's one of those things that's really really important for our children to to dive into, and I think that that's really something that should be part of every conversation that we have.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and especially like that's a conversation when your kids are little about different kinds of families, right Right Relationships, so it's everywhere, it is never going away, and so just your responsibility as a parent of a neurodivergent kid is to be just mindful. Okay, they might see this part of themselves differently than I do, and there's so much help and support for for parents of queer kids, but one of the other statistics that I am going to just drop in here is that, unfortunately, queer kids are four times more likely to commit suicide. Oh, wow.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a really important statistic and this can be one of the topics that, and then you add near divergence, you add this, you add that and it's going to increase that as well. But the one thing that keeps those kids on par with the general population is parental support. And it's really interesting because parental support just comes down a tiny bit. There's suicide risk, it's, it's, it's higher, it's crazy.
Speaker 1:So that for me is a big deal right, like nobody wants their kid to do that, right, and I think everybody would love to have a heads up, and if they know that right off the bat this is something that's going to be critical to understand in a conversation to be having, then it's definitely. It's like oh, you never want to look back as a parent and say, if I had only known, yeah, or if I had, if I had believed my child?
Speaker 2:Yes, right, and. And also it can be really confusing because adolescence is a time of trying things on and and exploring, and so you know, you know we have kids who, like I, lots of stories from parents were like, okay, my daughter announced that they are non-binary, which means they don't have a gender, and they are using they them pronouns last week and now she's furious. They are furious because I misgendered them and so used she instead of they, and then a week later they're back to she and then they're back to they. So there's this exploration and stuff, and so trying to keep up with that.
Speaker 2:So my friend, joe Langford, who is a wonderful therapist who works with boys and he says just hold it lightly, roll with it, Ask what does that mean? And when you misgender them or you're super confused and they're making you nuts with this, you go do that with your friends, with them. You go do that with your friends, with them. You are loving kindness and light and trying to figure it out right, be there for them, be supportive, and if you don't get it, you can just say I just don't get this, but I love you, right, and we'll figure it out.
Speaker 1:Just like you can say this is going to be an awkward conversation. You can say, this is not something I'm familiar with and understand from your perspective, but that doesn't mean that, as your parent, I still love you. That doesn't mean that there's a lack of love or a lack of wanting to understand. I love you. I'm here for you. Let's figure out how we're going to walk this together, and I mean, let's admit it, they grow up. There's just times we conflict because they're teenagers, and so this is really, if we just relax and treat it as just another area we conflict in, we're going to navigate. I think we're going to navigate it a whole lot better than if we get ourselves emotional energy. So, yeah, that that makes a big difference. I think that's a key thing to focus on.
Speaker 2:Oh, go ahead, just circling back. Like this is not something people do intuitively, while parenting is not something people do intuitively. Let's just be clear about that. But this is really not something people do intuitively.
Speaker 2:So, learning about how to talk with kids, understanding what they need to know by when, um, and realizing that they absolutely need to know, like they should know how babies are made by the time they are six like that needs to get out of the way. That is science, it's easy, right? They should understand about different kinds of relationships, they should know about crushing and what love is, and, and they should know that people have sex for fun. I'm, you know, most of the time we're having sex for fun, right, like baby making, which you should also be very clear that we plan our pregnancies. Pregnancies are planned, yes, absolutely. Like just plant that seed. Like if you're going to have sex, you're going to use birth control. Like just if you're going to get pregnancy can happen.
Speaker 2:Just being really clear about that and you know if that might. If you're, if you're a person who believes that people should wait until they're married, until they have sex, and you know that does not work, because you might've been that person, it doesn't work. It's never worked, it never will worked, but you can say what I hope for you is that you wait until you're in a loving, committed relationship, ideally married. But if that isn't, if you're heading down that path, please let us know. We'll make sure you're safe and it's a good decision for you, right, um cause you can't control them, but you can set them up for success.
Speaker 1:Right, and, like you said, you can tell them what your hope and your goals are. Yeah, that is so. We do that in all parts, all parts of parenting. We tell them what our hopes and goals are for them and careers and everything. We should also tell them for our hopes and goals in their sexual life, with a but. But you're your own person, this is your life. So as you navigate that, come to me. Let me help you Know that pregnancies are planned. No-transcript interjecting in this conversation. Stop talking about that, right. It's just so many times people don't want to talk about it at all and so it's such an important part is we have to have the birth control. Part of the conversation, like you said, said it starts with, by the time there was six that you said they should know how, how sex happens.
Speaker 2:Yeah, people agree to do it. It feels good to their grownup bodies. It's not for kids, it's later, for later in life. We'll talk about it a lot, so you feel ready for it If that's something you want to do, and those harder conversations about rape and assault and and that kind of stuff needs to come along. They should know. So, like a 10, 11 year old should know about those awful parts of of sexuality which I can't even call those sexuality, but those awful parts of life. They need to know about that because they're going to hear the words yes. And then if we kind of circle back to the porn conversation, the porn they're going to see is violent, it is fake, it is racist, it is sexist, it's awful.
Speaker 1:It's awful, it's absolutely horrible. It destroys the image of what sex should be. It absolutely destroys it.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. And kids think that they use that for training. They think that's how you do sex, because they don't have anyone to train them Right, so that's why we want to have the conversation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right. So being really clear, like you know, if you have a crush on someone, you know A, you might need to talk, find out if they are crushing back and talk about that. And then when people are engaged in any kind of romantic relationship, it usually starts with handholding yes, right, and there's lots of progression, right, and porn starts in the middle. Like being really clear, like porn starts in the middle. Real people don't do those things. Nobody's, nobody's body looks like that. They don't make those, those noises. The women are not enjoying that. They're acting like being really clear, that this is not real. And your child, who doesn't get it? All he gets is that it feels good to watch it, right.
Speaker 1:Doesn't get anything else, doesn't get anything else and it's. It's hard to explain. Um, like I said, I have three boys, um, one of ours is older and he we actually took him to and I, oh my gosh, I blanked on the name of the movie that came out, but it was about sex trafficking and that was part of our. Obviously we'd had many more conversations before. We just dropped him into that movie, but it hit him in such an emotional and impactive way.
Speaker 1:And then, at the end of that movie, when we were having our discussion, when dad and I were sitting down with him and discussing what it was part of what we brought up is this is what the porn industry is. So and he again, much more mature level we said if you were to watch porn, you're promoting that industry. Oh, my gosh, that hit home with him in a whole new level. And so it. There was a lot leading up to that. Again, this was when he was older, um, but I do think that if you're laying the foundations then, yes, you can get kids to start to understand the deeper levels of things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure, and that you know he's older, so he'd have some empathy, right. So young kids don't have empathy, they just don't. They don't have empathy until they're what, like 10 or maybe, if that, if they had that, so when he could see that, oh my God, he could see the through line. The other thing that happens is that there's this idea and developmentally different kiddos that they're not sexual, Right, they're just not interested, they're not capable, they're not interested, which is easy for us, okay, yeah, oh, don't need to know. If you're not interested, you're not capable of having a romance.
Speaker 2:So that's just absolutely not true and it's just going to look different. It's just absolutely not true and it's just going to look different. It's just going to look different. So, assuming your child has the same urges, interests, instincts, all of that as every other human being is really important because it's respectful. It's respectful and you know, lots of times people also think that if you fill a kid in about sex, they're going to go out and try it. No, it's, generally speaking, not true, right, right, having the information as early as you're talking about.
Speaker 1:By six, they should know what sex is and then you're building on it. They're not going to go out and try it because to them it's just a normal part of conversation. We talk about college, we talk about family, we talk about family, we talk about sex, we talk, you know, it's just part of the evolution of growing up in conversations and so, yeah, they're not just going to go run out there and try it because you've talked about it, exactly Because they're going to do it anyway. So here's an important question. We've talked about how do we start? We've talked about being six years old. What about my guests who have a 16-year-old or a 13-year-old and they're going? We haven't had the conversation. Now what?
Speaker 2:Okay, here's the good news. With a person who is 12 and over, you do not need to be careful, you don't need to say when a man and a woman fall in love, none of that. You just say to them the first thing you say is we've blown it. I blew it. We should have been talking to you about this. We didn't know what to say. We didn't think you were ready. Frankly, we weren't ready.
Speaker 2:I wasn't ready, but you have to know, because there is so much bad information about this that I know you've heard. Even if you think your child's in a bubble, maybe they are. Maybe you live in a log cabin in the middle of Montana with no Wi-Fi and they're homeschooled. But I'm going to guess. No, um, like you say, you know, I know you've heard stuff and it's time for us to start talking. I'm going to be uncomfortable, you're going to be uncomfortable. We will live. Yeah, I'm going to get your books.
Speaker 2:We've got this great videos that can show you and we have to talk about this because you need to be smart about it and then throw that whole thing about. You know, you're the smartest person in your friend group. It was really good, it feels really good and they may like, they may say I already know everything and you say, great, I'm sure you don't know a ton, but I don't know what you know. So I'm going to be telling you stuff. That's a great answer, yeah, and you know the nuts, the nuts and bolts, bold stuff like the science-y stuff around STIs and pregnancy and that kind of thing, as you recall, like that's just kind of book learning, right. But it's the pieces that are confusing about the relationship stuff. I mean, just think about, reflect on your own high school years, right? Remember how confusing that was.
Speaker 2:And then, layer, neurodivergence on that right Layer, some kind of intellectual disability on that like layer, physical disability on that, like layer in, and it's just even more complex. But I'm just going to go back to this idea that you being just straight and not pussyfooting around, just talking about it is easier and better for everyone and no one's going to die and no one's going to throw up. So there's that.
Speaker 1:Well, and I love you know, like you said, there's so many resources out there, and so we'll put some of the resources on my website and, of course, I'll link to your information too. One of the things that I love that you've said over and over again as you've said, this is for adults, so we're going to talk about it to prepare you. This is for people who agree and you've used the word agree every time, and I like that. Agree to do this. Agree implies a discussion that we're not accidentally letting this happen. We've discussed it, we're preparing for it, we're planning for it, and we're planning what we don't want to have happen, which is a pregnancy right now, right, so those are the things I think you've loved about, and then also, I love that you've said be consistent, don't give up the conversation.
Speaker 1:Start it as early as you can and just keep going, keep going, keep going, even when they push you back to say, oh, that's okay. I understand that you don't want to talk about it right now, but I'm going to talk to you a little bit about it anyways, because I want to make sure we're still on the same page, or that you, but I'm going to talk to you a little bit about it anyways, because I want to make sure we're still on the same page or that you know we're still headed in the right direction. And then one of the things I love is you talk about it so naturally. Well, it's because you have a lot of practice. So would you suggest that parents maybe practice a little bit in the mirror, getting comfortable with their facial expressions, so they're not going. So there's this sex thing, you know. Would you suggest they practice in the mirror, or even practice with each other, if they can, or a best friend themselves?
Speaker 2:Yeah, if you're parenting with someone practicing in the car by yourself if you're ever in the car by yourself, great place to practice. I have a book called Sex Talks with Tweens. That's just scripts. I actually have a person who's a grandmother and her grandsons come over. She just opens it up and reads it to them. There you go. She reads my scripts.
Speaker 2:It's okay, it doesn't matter. They're going to think you're weird anyway. So if you just say I have notes because I'm uncomfortable, you're also modeling how you manage something when you feel uncomfortable. Right, so take notes.
Speaker 2:The other thing, too, is if you say something and you're talking and you're using too many words, or you get all hot and weird or your kid, like, runs screaming from you, that's all fine. You're just going to come back and say I need to do that again. I got all hot and weird and you ran screaming, so use your timer. I'm going to set your timer. If they have a phone which they should not have, a phone until they are in the eighth or ninth grade, set your timer. If they have a phone which they should not have, a phone until they are in the eighth or ninth grade, set their timer and give me three minutes and you use your three minutes.
Speaker 2:You can also say things like. You do not need to respond to me. I don't have any expectation that you ask me questions, but no matter what, when you're done you say anything. What do you think? Did you already know that? Anything to add, you give them an opportunity to talk to you. You don't just like I'm done. You always give them a space to talk to you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, I love that. There's no expectation of response but there's an opportunity for an response. Yes, exactly, exactly, I love it. And then one I would love. I'm going to feature your book on my website, of course. Um one of the other books that I brought up to you that my husband and I have used because of the porn situation is we use the good pictures, bad pictures, and we've read through this more than once with our kids Even my children, who have not been exposed to pornography. We've still read through this book with them. So there are so many resources out there and I think sometimes parents just don't know where to look. So obviously, I'm going to list some, I'll link to you, you're going to list some, I'll link to you, you're going to list some, and then that'll give them at least a good launching point.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, and good pictures, bad pictures is the only book that's really good that's out there for kids. Um, about, about porn exposure. There's a junior version and a I call it the senior version, so there's one for younger kids and there's one for older kids. Um, it's good information for you too, and don't be afraid to read it. Don't be afraid to read it. Like you personally might need to chunk it down, and that's fine, especially if you're the child with a short attention span. So just be mindful. Like you might even only get like two paragraphs in, that's fine. I mean with any of the books and things that we recommend. But the biggest thing here is that you're going to do what you can do and doing nothing is not. It's not okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it's just not setting them up for failure is what it's doing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and and more complication and et cetera. So, just for yourself, um, just to get you know, kind of you, you've just already started the party. You listen to us, you listen to this conversation, right? So, yay, one step done. So maybe the next step is to sign up for my newsletter, or to go get a book that we recommend, right? Or to talk with your partner If you're parenting with someone, listen to this together or just say, hey, we got to do this, what's our plan? Right? And I know there's a series of books.
Speaker 1:And if listeners are Christian, there's a series of books. And if they, if, if listeners are Christian, there's a series of book called God's design for sex. And it's a series because it literally starts off at ages four, five, six, and each book is for a different chunk level, and they do exactly what you're saying. Matter of fact terms. They go over exactly how things happen and then they slowly introduce topics. Yeah, exactly how things happen. And then they slowly introduce topics. And then, even if your family doesn't a hundred percent agree on what the book is saying, what they can be doing is using that, as, like you said, you read the book first, go through it. Okay, at least I know what I need to be talking about this age group with my children, and now I'm going to insert our own values into the system Right.
Speaker 2:So one thing about those books I don't know how old they are and the chunking it out is great, but just rule of thumb for 2024 is they need to know basically everything by the time they start middle school. That's a scary thought, isn't it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, middle school seems so young. But you're right, because I was a middle school educator for 14 years and kids were having sex in the bathroom. Yeah, they sure were, and they still are, and now they're doing worse.
Speaker 1:We know it all by middle school, which means that 11 to 12 years old 11 to 12 years old they need to know everything, and that includes opening the discussion of what is LGBTQ, what is transgender. All of that has to be known. So if your child is six, seven, eight years old and they're scared by the topic, you got to start digging in fast, because you don't have much time left.
Speaker 2:I mean, and the thing to remember is that the if you get in, the sooner you get in the door and establish yourself as a trustworthy, knowledgeable person, you have age appropriate resources for them. You're talking openly about it. It protects them and it also puts you in this pretty cool position where you can be that parent that their friends know they can talk to if something goes sideways, Right, which is a real position of honor. And so by being open with your child, by being, you know, really frankly progressive with this and really on it, you can help another child. That's so wonderful. Yeah, it's a really great space to be in and everybody likes to feel like an expert, right? Yeah?
Speaker 1:And, like you said, even if your child becomes an expert in the area, they might actually be helping. In a way they don't even realize, right, because they're comfortable with a conversation that other people aren't comfortable with, right? So consistent talk, that is age appropriate. However, by six, they should know what sex is and the mechanics of it. By 11, 12, which is double that age five, six years later, they should know it all and the basics of everything.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah so the book that I really love. That is kind of everything is called. It's perfectly normal and they should have that book and it's going to feel like a lot, but compared to what they're going to be exposed to as I, as you know it's not. It's healthy, it's accurate and it's it's positive, like, when people hear the phrase sex positive, they think that that's like advocating for people being, you know, snm and swinging through the rafters and polyamory and all that. Sure, that's part of it, but really what it means is that we're kind of where you started, like sex is a positive, healthy, wonderful, cool part of life. Yep.
Speaker 1:And we just need to let our kids know that it is a part of an adult life, for adults that agree whatever is going to happen and are prepared for it, and we talk about it just like we do anything else their education, their future job, their friendships, everything else because it is the whole human Absolutely Well, Amy, I really hope that I bet we're going to get a lot of comments and a lot of questions and I really hope that maybe we can schedule to have you back sometime in the future to kind of address some of those, maybe even take some of those questions and just specifically go at it, Cause I've loved this conversation. I really appreciate you joining us.
Speaker 2:Thank you, and thank you for trusting me with your people. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1:Oh, I'm so excited I mean I just have goosebumps from it because I know how much it's going to help so many people out there. Good, Thank you Me too, Thank you, Amy. Have a good day Me too.
Speaker 2:This program is made possible by friends and partners of the Special Parent Podcast. For more information and to join our mailing list, visit specialparentorg.